Episode 97: Exploring Authenticity and Leadership: The Inspirational Journey of Professor Sel Hwahng

Speaker 1: 0:00

Welcome to Conversations that Matter with your host, amber Howard. Each week, amber dances, in conversation with inspirational leaders, out to make a difference for what matters most to people. She brings you incredible guests who share their real-life experience of being a leader and what it looks like to live a truly created life of service to others. And now here's your host.

Speaker 2: 0:24

Welcome back everyone. Welcome back to Conversations that Matter. This morning I am honored and privileged and so pleased to welcome Sal Huang to the show. Sal is a professor and research scientist at Townsend and John Hopkins Universities. Their work is focused in both women, gender and LGBTQ studies, as well as cardiovascular and nutritional epidemiology and I can't believe I just got all of that out. Sal is also a published author and social and behavioral research scientist. Sal is deeply committed that everyone knows and sees themselves as leaders in all aspects of their life that matter to them. Sal, welcome to the show. It's so great to have you here. Thank you so much.

Speaker 3: 1:12

I am so honored to be here.

Speaker 2: 1:14

Yeah, I've been. Actually, we booked this months ago and then I've just been. I've been looking for it all summer. There's really no such thing as summer in Bali, where I am these days, but I've been looking forward to this conversation so much, so I'm so grateful that it's here and I really just want to. When I was preparing for the interview, I was like really kind of curious how does all of the things that you do in the world, you know, how does all of that, come together? And so I'd love to give you an opportunity to kind of share about your journey to get today and and, and, yeah, how, how you're, how this is, all come together for you.

Speaker 3: 1:52

Yeah Well, do you want me to just kind of go a little bit through my educational process, or something like that?

Speaker 3: 1:58

Maybe that or just you know, yeah, the context of it, I mean I would say so. So I mean, I'm just going to start with my higher education. You know, my parents kind of like coerced me to like be, you know, they really want me to be a medical doctor when I was getting my undergraduate, and so that's why I ended up with a degree in biology, even though I do find it really useful now, but back then, you know, that was like a long time ago, decades ago. I, you know, I kind of just did it, you know. And and then you know, personally, I realized after I graduated that being a medical doctor was not in my you know, was it my calling, so to speak? So then I, after that, I, I became a punk rock musician.

Speaker 1: 2:54

And I also went.

Speaker 3: 2:56

You know I was in the Southern California area where I did my undergrad degree and then I moved up to the San Francisco Bay area and I went. I just started, like you know. I went to San Francisco State University and I just started taking all these classes and I kind of settled on like, at that, at that university you could at least at that time you could create your own master. So I did one that combined like Asian American studies, women's studies they didn't have gender studies back then and interdisciplinary arts and and then that's so. Then from there I went and got my doctorate degree at New York University in a department called performance studies, which most people are like what is that? And you know, it's like some people were doing like more like theater studies in that department and I focused more on cultural studies. I would say really looking at cultures.

Speaker 3: 4:02

But then after that it was really interesting because I right after I graduated I had I got this opportunity to do a postdoctoral fellowship in behavioral science, training in drug abuse which was affected to some of my, some of the work I was doing in my dissertation, and so then I got exposed to this whole, you know, the whole like social and behavioral science and I had been doing I mean, you know, a lot of my work in my PhD was focused, had been focused on like looking at, you know, sexual and gender minority communities, but more from like a looking at, you know, like I don't know, like art and film and some theater, you know, because that I was in a like a humanities department.

Speaker 3: 4:59

But then I had this opportunity to, with my postdoctoral fellowship, to be part of this multimillion dollar study funded by the National Institutes of Health in the United States which was looking at what we now call, you know, trans feminine spectrum communities in New York City with regard to HIV risk, and that was very eye opening for me.

Speaker 3: 5:28

You know, just like, well, first of all, to get some, you know, have access to so much funding for research, right, because in the humanities like that's not, that's like pretty much unheard of, you know, for like one study to get, you know, multimillion dollars like maybe a center, I think in Canada there might be more funding proportionally for the humanities, which I know, is your, more your background.

Speaker 3: 5:55

But in the US, you know, like I don't like, maybe a humanities center or something you know that that's doing a bunch of different projects might get that that amount of money. So it was just really interesting to see what we could do, you know, in terms of like, really exploring all these different communities, trans feminine communities and and you know I wrote a first author to paper from the during that time of my postdoctoral fellowship and created this term called Ethnocultural Communities, because with these trans feminine communities, you know, what we discovered was that they were a lot of times they were kind of segregated according to their like, ethnic and race and class you know, like like community, like they were like very distinct, like Ethnocultural Communities that didn't, that didn't really interact with the other ethnic, cultural, trans, feminine communities, you know.

Speaker 3: 7:01

But but yeah, they were just so interesting and so yeah, so I think so, so that was. I mean, this was back in the 2000s, right, so that was like 20 years ago and yeah, and it was like I was involved in it. So you know that study for about five years and it was great. You know I was able to work with the principal investigator and we published, you know, over a dozen papers and book chapters and things like that. So it was. It was, you know, very prolific in terms of the research and the publications and what we discovered.

Speaker 3: 7:43

So after that, I mean, I was involved in some smaller studies here and there and I had wanted to like develop my own research career in public health, but I had no public health degree. So it took me a while but finally I went back to school yet to pursue my master's degree in epidemiology, and epidemiology is a science of public health. So part of it was like, part of it was like because the department I got my PhD in was considered so experimental, right, and so kind of like fringe, so to speak, which also wasn't necessarily great for job marketability. Like when I was going on the job market to find it most, a lot of people were looking for jobs as professors, because there aren't that many options to if you have a humanities like PhD. And so when I finally chose to get another degree in public health I mean yeah, in a master's degree in public health I remember someone telling me, like don't go into any department that has like social in the title of the department, because you already know how to do that. Like you wanna do something that really complements what you already know. So in terms of like that person was referring to, like don't do anything that's like social, scientific, right, because I already kind of have that training. So I was like, okay, well, there's like biostatistics, there's epidemiology, there's health policy and like those departments are kind of considered really central to public health. And so I chose to go into epidemiology because that's I am really interested in research and I felt like I was gonna get the most training and actually how to create research designs and how to set myself up as powerfully as I could to be a public health research scientist, you know, with a master's degree. So, yeah, so I did that. And then it was a few months after I started that program, a couple of things happened. There was, like this very severe illness in my family that happened kind of out of the blue and it's still being managed, but it's, you know, I have to. I've been dealing, not have to but I've been choosing to, you know, provide a lot of caregiving to my family member around that, this issue. And then I also, you know, became a professor, a professor, you know, a tenor track professor at Towson University, which is in the University of Maryland system, in women and gender studies. So I've been doing both.

Speaker 3: 11:20

And another thing about the Department of Epidemiology at Johns Hopkins University is that there are eight tracks. It's like a very large department. And when I was thinking of starting there, you know they were asking me well, what track are you gonna focus in? Because you know focus on, because there's different courses, you know, for each track. So I thought I was gonna do either they have an infectious disease track, because I had been doing HIV and drug use research, so on HIV, or I thought I would maybe do they have a general track so I could focus more on social epidemiology, you know, which is very much connected to my social and behavioral science research background, and then it was really interesting because then I chose cardiovascular epidemiology.

Speaker 3: 12:20

And you know, I think that part, yeah, I mean, it was kind of almost a surprise to me that I chose that and in, you know, in some ways it makes sense. You know it makes sense because you know, like, when I was at so they had this like two week kind of program that students incoming students could take, called like intro to biomedical sciences, like for people who had not been exposed to biomedical sciences or who had not been in biomedical sciences for a long time. So for me, I had not been into in it for a long time since, really since I finished my bachelor's degree in biology, which was decades ago. So I chose to do that and when I was there, like, I was exposed to all these different students, you know, including students in my department of epidemiology, and they were from different tracks and so I was talking to them and finding out about their track and things like that.

Speaker 3: 13:32

And so I think what a lot of people don't realize, well, I mean, you can, you know, anyone can just Google and see, you know, in terms of, like, what is the highest cause of mortality is cardiovascular disease, and you know that's both in the US, in North America and globally. And you know we also use this term called cardio-metabolic disease, which includes cardiovascular disease but also includes other illnesses like diabetes, kidney disease, stroke, and so then if we combine all of that, you know the mortality, what we call the mortality burden, is so huge, you know. And morbidity, you know morbidity being illness. You know burden of illness, and so what I saw was, if I was gonna invest this much time and energy and money into getting this degree, I wanted to make the biggest impact I could, right. So I wanted to really confront, like, what is the most major, you know, illness outcome that affects the most number of people. You know the largest number of people.

Speaker 3: 15:04

And I also heard some positive things. Like you know there's, you know there's a certain faculty member who leads that track, and how they were. They were kind of, you know, like they meet at something called the Welch Center, which is kind of it's kind of this center that is also connected to the School of Medicine and Johns Hopkins Hospital, Like where, at Johns Hopkins, the School of Public Health, school of Nursing, school of Medicine and the hospital are all in one area which is called the East Baltimore campus and that's separate than the main Johns Hopkins University campus.

Speaker 3: 15:48

So we're like on the health and medical science campus kind of thing health, health science campus, anyway. So what I heard was that, oh yeah, the you know, like the cardiovascular track, you know, and also the there's a clinical track, you know, they they meet in this Welch Center, which is also is brings in people from like School of Medicine and Johns Hopkins Hospital and and it's it's kind of creates this very cohesive environment. And you know, I mean by ton. You know, when I went back to school, which was it was just a few years ago, you know, I mean I was already middle age. So I, I mean I have learned a few things about myself, which is that, even though I may not like it at the moment, I really operate the best when I'm on a tight leash, you know, like when I'm on a loose leash, it's like, you know, I can be like halfway to Mars in 10 minutes, right. So I, you know I was really like determined to be really focused on this program.

Speaker 1: 16:52

You know as much as.

Speaker 3: 16:53

I could, and so I didn't want to give myself a lot of wiggle room. To start, I don't know diverging off of something.

Speaker 2: 17:05

We also opt to a lot too right. So I mean, you've got like you know, I know a little bit about the other areas of your life and what you're doing, things. You have a lot on the go on it, so I can imagine that sometimes staying focused on one thing could be challenging. I'm really present to a couple of things and you're sharing one like I'm always moved by the courage. You know, my purpose and my commitment is that everyone live a creative life of their own design, based on what they authentically want. And so when I hear you say like at the beginning of your journey, yeah, this was about pleasing my parents, or doing what my parents wanted me to do to become a medical doctor, and at different steps of your journey, just becoming more and more aligned with what you wanted for yourself, and it's like, yeah, we want to honor the people around us and especially honor our parents. But I think the more we can interrupt this conversation that you know to be a good person or to honor people or whatever is to kind of not to do what other people want versus what we want, I think that creates better outcomes for all of us, because it's our life right. And at the end of the day, if we're not pursuing the things that light up our soul and bring us joy and happiness, then what are we really doing?

Speaker 2: 18:17

But the other thing I was really present to in your journey is, like one of my favorite quotes by Soren Kierkegaard is around like you know, life can only be understood looking in the rear view mirror.

Speaker 2: 18:28

But you don't live it that way kind of thing, right, and so I can imagine that, standing here today, you couldn't have really strategized your way to the journey, to get to this moment. Right, it was like all of these, like in the moment, and I love that you shared kind of like your decision making with us and the things that impacted the course of your life and how you got to be where you are today, and that evolving of the commitment that you are and that you have as you got more and more clarity about what that looked like and kind of how can I have the biggest impact and how can my research make the biggest difference for the greatest, you know, the greater good of others. You know and I'm curious because you say that you're deeply committed that everyone knows himself as a leader in all aspects of their lives that matter to them. How does that interrelate with the work you do in gender studies and the work that you do in health and public health?

Speaker 3: 19:26

Yeah, I'm really glad you brought that up Before I go there, though I do just finish up this last piece because I think it is connected to this next piece around the leadership. So you know I am one of the main foci of my research is around, you know, lgbtq communities, or sometimes known as sexual and gender minority communities, and almost all the research that's been undertaken in those communities have been around HIV and sometimes, by extension, substance use and mental health, but there's hardly any research on cardiovascular or cardiometabolic disease. So this was something that I saw like that was another impetus for me to go into the cardiovascular track was, you know, to start to really start to conduct research that hasn't been conducted before on these communities. Like we don't even really know. You know what's going on and then also, you know with you know there's there can be some complications with, like, gender affirming hormone therapy, right, we don't know enough to really know how to administer best practices around that there still isn't. Isn't great studies around around that? You know, like to me, what would be like great studies are studies that follow people for 30 years or longer. Right, just see what are the long term effects and what would be the best dosage, you know, and at what frequencies you know with.

Speaker 3: 21:14

With regard to, you know, with people who are engaged in gender affirming hormone gender affirming hormone therapy trying to get the right acronym and I myself was involved.

Speaker 3: 21:32

I mean, I myself was on testosterone a couple of decades ago and for a couple of years and I was concerned because I would be checking. I mean, they say when you're on gender affirming hormone therapy, it's really best to get your different level, different aspects, checked every six months. You know, like blood levels, like I think I was getting maybe my heart and cholesterol checked. You know, I can't remember now because it was so long ago, but I was concerned because my cholesterol really shot up, you know, dramatically, and that was part of the reason why I stopped it because I was like, well, I don't know what the long term effects are and it's, I mean I was gonna say especially back then, but there just isn't even that much nowadays. You know, like, like there still isn't research that can that shows like what, what are what, what are the 20, 30 year long you know effects of taking this and what's the best way to take, you know, take this, you know this type of supplementation.

Speaker 3: 22:49

So that's also another issue in the LGBTQ community that you know. That is something I do want to really address with my research.

Speaker 2: 23:05

So do you know I've just been, I'm going to be doing a teaching at a First Nations College in Canada in October and as part of onboarding to do that course, they, you know they require you to take a course they've created called the Four Seasons of Reconciliation Cell and and about First Nations communities, indigenous communities in Canada and the history. And so why do you think that is? In terms of research around LGBTQ and, you know, gender and sexual minority, is it because of like partially, or like societal bias, or or the lens through which like? Why? Why are there not a lot of people doing research in these?

Speaker 3: 23:49

communities, unlike cardiometabolic. Yeah well, so I would say, you know, kind of the cynical, cynical part of me, you know, would say well, you know, there's a lot of research that was conducted around HIV because it was also a way to try to contain, right, this infectious disease, you know, and contain it like, and I mean not only contain it but of course to diminish it in the LGBTQ communities. But part of that I I believe, is also to make by containing and, you know, trying to diminish it in the LGBTQ communities, it is less likely to spread to, like, let's say, the white heterosexual communities you know, because it can potentially spread, right, when there are, you know, people who are bisexual, pansexual, or you know injection drug use, etc.

Speaker 3: 25:01

In terms of cardiovascular disease, so that you know that is really like to to improve. That is really that you know like. So, for instance, if there was like a if and I don't even know, I mean, there's a little bit of research, research that indicates this. But you know like, let's say, if heart disease was like rampant among LGBTQ communities, it wouldn't really affect necessarily heterosexual communities because it's not infectious, right, it's called a non communicable disease. There's an acronym called NCD, right. So it's almost like it's not to me, it almost, it almost shows like it's almost a manifestation of, like the, the, how devalued LGBTQ communities are in the fact that there is such little research. Yeah, you know these health outcomes that have, you know that impact more mortality and morbidity, so much, and yet there's so little research on this among LGBTQ communities.

Speaker 2: 26:23

I am did my undergraduate degree in bioethics at the University of Toronto and I remember one of my professors at the time I can't remember what course it was in, but we talked about kind of the ethics the difference in ethics of the healthcare system and the ethics of the community during the beginning, and he was working in Toronto or in Canada at that time during you know, the height of the HIV and AIDS epidemic. And just saying like it makes me a little bit sad, to be honest. Like like that, you know, still decades later. You know, I did my undergraduate degree in, you know, the early 2000s and he was talking about something that happened decades before that that like it's like we'll put money into research for HIV and drug and mental you know and these are very stereotypical, you know, I mean for a long time being gay or you know, and even today, with all of the conversations around transgender and you know like there was a long time where these were seen to be, you know, mental illnesses. So it's like we'll fund research into that almost and I'm not saying this is the truth, but this is just what's showing up for me in this conversation it's like we'll fund research around that to protect the rest of the population from you, but we're not actually going to pour research into or put funds behind, because really, I mean it's this as systems we decide where our money goes right, and where the money goes is where the focus is right. So it's like we're not going to fund, we're not going to take care of your whole health and well-being, we're not going to take care of the whole of you or care about the whole of you, but we will, you know, care about things that you might be doing that could impact the rest of society, which, like, yeah, that makes me sad, okay, I don't have other words for it it makes me sad. Like, and you know one of the things that I've been really like, we're learning to practice and play. Like not play with that stuff, but practice is like looking out into the world and seeing the things that I don't wish were different or weren't there, but not making it wrong. Right, and how do I focus on being a leader and making a difference in the world, but not making the conditions in the world wrong, while still honoring my feelings? Right?

Speaker 2: 28:58

And I remember having a conversation with a mutual acquaintance of ours, a wonderful woman by the name of Joyce once and I told her I had a commitment that everyone be treated with dignity and she said that's great, you should be prepared to spend the rest of your life upset. And I'm not saying, don't have a commitment that people be treated with dignity, because I have one, but you should just be prepared, like, to spend your life in an upset over that, right. So you know, thank you. I guess what's there to say also, sal, is like just thank you for and you know your journey to get to today and being someone who's willing to have your life be in service of that and put focus on that and have attention and say no like yeah, okay, the other research may be important Fine, you know, but that's not the only conversation or that's the only aspect of LGBTQ or sexual and gender minority communities health and well-being that's important.

Speaker 3: 29:53

Yeah, yeah and yeah. So I think it's like you know. And I do want to transition to the leadership piece which is you know, I think it was really once like I, kind of like and you know I think you wrote that I don't know if you read that piece with the cross proposals and the you know that I wrote about kind of my journey but around in ontological leadership, but it was really like I, when I went once I placed myself in that I think nutrient rich what I called nutrient rich environment of like epidemiology, with all these eight tracks, I could kind of choose powerfully right. So I think there's something there too to like, like, be like something about being an abundant. When I'm in abundance of something, that's when I can really choose powerfully.

Speaker 3: 30:45

you know, of like where I want to focus on right. So yeah, so, so yeah. You asked me about the leadership part, so I really have to. I mean, I know you and I met through a course in Landmark Worldwide and there's another course called being Leader in the Effective Exercise of Leadership, which I first took in 2016. It's a course designed for to be delivered in higher education institutions. I took it at a university in South Carolina. I flew down there just to take that particular course, which was offered during the summer or something, and then, starting in 2017, I started a training program which I'm still involved in, where I lead it. So I've led I lead the whole course at Towson University and also parts of the course in other courses at Towson University, and I've led parts of the course at Johns Hopkins University. I am also scheduled to lead some parts of the course in a workshop series at La Fierre University, which is my alma mater in Southern California, and well it's anyway, it's a little complicated. It used to be called Loma Linda University at La Fierre campus. That is my alma mater, but then it changed to La Fierre University and I really have to.

Speaker 3: 32:38

I'm really thankful for that course, because that course really. It did really transform my life and I was really able to, for instance, go for, you know, go for pursuing, you know this master's degree in epidemiology. You know, kind of at my age, you know being real aged and stuff, and you know, I mean, I continually just keep drawing from that course. It's, it's just so brilliant on some level.

Speaker 3: 33:15

You know what is involved in that course, what's in that course, which is very much focused on ontological leadership, and which ontological is is contrasted with epistemological. So ontological is really focused on who one is being, and out of transforming who one is being, then then the thoughts, the actions will all come out of the being. You know and that's really different than you know what is considered epistemological, which is very knowledge based. Right, that's what I've trained to deliver, right, as a faculty member lots and lots of knowledge, you know, which of course can be useful, right, sure, but I think knowledge itself isn't enough to really for someone to, I think, like you said, you know create the life they want right or enact the differences.

Speaker 3: 34:16

I think a better way to say it is to make the contributions they really want to make.

Speaker 2: 34:22

I like that, I agree. I mean, when you said knowledge is important, I was like, yeah, you wouldn't want to. You know a heart surgeon who doesn't know how to perform the heart surgery operating on you. But as I've gone through my journey, like I came from, you know, from a perhaps a different like the journey to get to that understanding was different. For me it was through business, right, and it's like I can give people the best strategy in the world that can help them create the greatest business plan, but if they don't actually believe in themselves or they're not confident or you know they're being afraid or whatever it is, then they're going to sabotage themselves.

Speaker 2: 35:02

So it's like it's become more and more important to me as times gone by, to say, no, you need both.

Speaker 2: 35:08

Right, yeah, you need the knowledge and the expertise in order to be able to execute on the things that are important to you, but you also, more importantly, need to tend to the conversation about who you are and who you're being in the world and deal with the limiting beliefs, or the you know, the beliefs that you've inherited.

Speaker 2: 35:26

You know, even just I like I've been doing some work with a coach around. He's got, he's developed a framework for honoring self and others. And this has become a very important conversation to me over the last. You know, like, how do I, in all of the different areas of my life, be someone who's honoring of others but also honoring myself? And I just like once you, once you start to do that work, it's kind of like the experience I had. I recently had an experience where I I got there was a way I had not been honoring myself and it's kind of like passing a threshold. It's like once you kind of discover some of these things and you start to work in the world of ontology and and being, this and you know the subconscious mind and I think you, it just alters everything.

Speaker 3: 36:19

Yeah, yeah, it yeah, oops, I don't know why I have the alarm here. Yeah, I don't even know what, what, what to say about that? It's you know, and and something else I guess I want to say about that is that, with this leadership course, is that one of the what we, you know what's called the distinctions of the course is that all ways of being and all ways of action are available to one when one's being a leader and exercising leadership effectively. It doesn't mean that all ways of being and all ways of acting are appropriate, you know, for that situation, but that they're just available and depending on the situation, right, like one can draw from things.

Speaker 3: 37:05

And so, like I've really noticed in my own life as I go, as I've been going through you know, as you know kind of someone who leads this leadership course, you know like I've been drawing on some really surprising I don't know either resources or putting myself into programs that I didn't think I'd put myself into to kind of forward the conversation of myself as a leader. So you know, like, for instance, right now I'm in this very intensive team leadership program, management leadership program that I thought I wouldn't do because I didn't think I had the time for it, and you know, a lot of it is about kind of like working no-transcript, going through the fears, like I don't know to put it. Working through fears, like the ways that fear has stopped me in the past that I didn't notice, confronting those fears and moving past them. I mean, I still have plenty of fears left but really seeing like what fears are, kind of the inauthentic fears that kind of held me back.

Speaker 2: 38:27

Well, I, you know I want to talk about that, but I also like to want to go back to them. When you said a couple of minutes ago about this idea that always of being an all action are available to you in leadership, because it's so contrary to, like, the body of knowledge around leadership and what's taught right, and then someone who teaches leadership courses, it's like, oh no, there's like six or 10, depending on the framework or the school of thought, like there's six or 10 different styles of leadership and you know leaders are either being, you know, authoritative or transactional or like whatever it is right. But it's like there's like these agreed upon set of ways of being that a leader should be. And I mean, I think it kind of ties into what you're saying a little bit about fear, because what happens, and when you teach leadership from that place or you train leaders from that place, it cuts off all of these other ways of being and creates this like and this is really interesting when I was talking with my coach this week, he said, like all oppressive systems have a should right, like, so within that, like the conversations about body image and you know, like to be beautiful, you should be thin right. So to be a leader, you should be one of these six or 10, depending. Again, you know, there's a little bit of variation, but not all that much. Right Like leaders can't be, you know, be vulnerable Leaders can't be foolish or silly. Right Like so the and so then it creates this environment anytime.

Speaker 2: 39:52

I think there's this should you know, we have this inability to be our authentic selves and, you know, fear of being something that's not the agreed upon norm of what a leader should be right. So I think that I thank you for that, because I think for me that just opens up a lot in terms of like. What are some of the ways of being Like? What have I decided based on what I inherited you know what I was born into about what it looks like to be a leader. What have I decided I shouldn't be as a leader? Right, and is there opportunity to play with some of that?

Speaker 3: 40:28

Right, yeah, exactly, and in the course it also says that sometimes to be a leader looks like being a bystander or being a follower. Right, it doesn't always look like you're in the front of the room or you're whatever in the front doing something leading you know? Yeah, it's so great.

Speaker 2: 40:48

Talk to me a little bit. I know you've got a book coming out soon, sal. Talk to me a little bit about what's coming for you inside of this very I'm just so present. You have a very rich world that you play in and that you live in, and so, yeah, talk to us about the book, thank you.

Speaker 3: 41:06

Yeah, well, I'm really excited. It's been like years in the making. It's called Global LGBTQ Health Pull In, let's see. I think it's Research Practice Policy, or maybe Research Policy, practice and Pathways. It's the publisher, springer Nature, and I'm really happy to be able to say it's open. We got funding so it's open access.

Speaker 3: 41:37

So once the book is out, then usually the books, usually you know it's considered a textbook. So a textbook from Springer Nature would cost money to be able to read it. Or you know, if you had access to a library that had it, you can read it that way and so it's really great that you know it's open access. And also a lot of the content you know we, you know is from the global South. You know we didn't want it to. You know, make a very like global North heavy. You know I mean this happens a lot. You know when someone says it's global, but then it's like mostly like you know, whatever, canada, us, western Europe or something, and there's nine chapters and seven case studies and I think when you know adding up all the authors and you know who wrote the chapters and the case studies, you know it comes up to 34 contributors.

Speaker 3: 42:41

So, it's really, yeah, it's really great. I think it. We have a preliminary URL for it and yeah, so I think it's. You know, on there it says like it's 330 pages. So, yeah, I'm excited. It's been a really long time. I really I learned so much about myself in creating. You know, creating this or you know, working on this, collaborating on this.

Speaker 3: 43:13

I am the editor of it with a faculty member at Johns Hopkins University. Her name is Michelle Kaufman and she's in the Department of Health, behavior and Society and the Department of International Health in the School of Public Health, bloomberg School of Public Health at Hopkins, and so it was also a great to work with her. She was, you know, very patient, which was good, I mean, you know. Also, you know she's brilliant in everything as well too, and she has like a great network of people. You know she brought in a lot of the authors. She might have even brought in the majority of the authors, you know, I think kind of I haven't really taken account of that yet, or not and then I also, you know, co-authored some pieces, couple chapters, or co-authored couple chapters too.

Speaker 2: 44:13

So that's amazing. Well, for anyone who's listening to this conversation, you'll be able to find all of the links for how to get a hold of so and the book and in the notes for the podcast. You know I'm taking a lot away from this conversation cell. One of the biggest things I'm taking away from this conversation is something you said you know a little while ago, which was like when I am in an abundance of something is when I can choose powerfully, and I think that is such an incredible access to being able to just like, notice and bring awareness to like where, if I'm not experiencing the ability because my thinking, when I get like I've learned this about myself and my work around resilience when my thinking gets, when I'm emotionally depleted or don't have enough energy or whatever, my thinking becomes like normally I'm very creative, but my thinking becomes very black and white. So for me, this is like another way of looking at like when I feel like I have limited options or I'm you know, it's like oh, where am I coming from scarcity or where is abundance not present, and another way of looking at that.

Speaker 2: 45:21

So I was right to be excited for this conversation. It's been such a pleasure to be with you today. Thank you so much, for I know how busy you are and just really want to acknowledge you for the commitment you have for just people in general, but especially, you know, women and people of transgender and the LGBT community, and just really thank you for being someone who noticed. Many researchers would have gone their whole lives and not noticed that you know that there were groups of people in communities, of people who weren't being studied and considered and cared for, and just so, thank you for being someone who noticed and for having your life be in service of others.

Speaker 3: 46:01

Thank you, Amber. Wow, what a great finale to this interview.

Speaker 2: 46:08

Thank you For everyone listening to the show. I hope you enjoyed this conversation as much as I do and we'll talk to you next week. Thank, you.

Speaker 1: 46:15

Thank you so much for joining us for this week's episode. For more information on the show and our extraordinary guests, check out conversationsthetmatterpodcastcom.